106924-how-do-you-feel-about-your-time-invested-vs-payout
Content ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- I agree with both of these statements wholeheartedly. Unfortunately get ready for the flames (Backs away slowly) | |} ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- *ROFLSNORT!* Thanks for that, Cytrode. | |} ---- ---- Why don't you just come right out and say it: Dungeons are horrible Risk vs Reward. Don't you all agree? | |} ---- Some people might for sure. I think this is something too be looked at across all parts of the game though. Look at cooking for example. Warplots might be another. I know completionists cant even get 100% in all zones because of some bugs or oversights and even if they do, what would they get for it? | |} ---- ---- How about no ;) The dungeons are the first in years of MMO's that are really fun and challenging. And what is the risk here? wiping to a boss a few times? have seen worse. And the reward is fun, knowledge of killing the endboss and maybe some epic loot that doesnt matter that much. cant wait for the 20man raid. should only take 1-2 weeks more for my guild | |} ---- I think hes misusing "risk" here to mean "time" Not everyone is going to value intrinsic rewards as much as others. The challenge and overcoming it is reward enough for you and thats fine. Not everyone feels that way. Others like to have something to show for their accomplishments and investments. This is why...as an analogy...we have people that think non paid internships are ok. They think the lessons you learn are worth while. While others would say "no, i worked, i should be paid for it". Same concept, different application. | |} ---- ---- not what anyone here said Addressing the bold part here. no, not less time...or challenge. Just better rewards for doing that content. Reducing the challenge would be taking away from the intrinsic reward players. giving people better loot (which is subjective, this COULD mean epics, or it could just mean loot better tailored to classes and builds, collectables, etc) Right...so wouldnt hypothetically a players time be better spent gathering mats and crafting? That drastically reduces the pool of people doing dungeons which is supposed to be the capstone content for casual players. Why would they bother doing it? You're putting words in peoples mouths here. Once again thats your opinion on the matter and it's one i respect but there are definitely those that would, and already have, disagreed for reasons i previously talked about. Yeah, good-ole Best-in-slot-ism. That 2% stat increase on that item isnt going to make or break a raid. When people hit 50 though their first stop for gear is auction house and crafting. The game should be giving them something to strive for afterward right? Is it doing a good job of that is part of this discussion. Hell if a pancake-ing cowboy hat actually dropped somewhere in Malgrave Trail you wouldnt ever find me outside that instance. But thats me, im a collector: dyes, housing, costumes, cool gear in general, mounts, etc are what i gun for. | |} ---- ---- ---- ---- I'd disagree with you here just for discussion sake. I run a pen and paper game on sundays. a couple of my players are power gamers. They love killing evil and taking its stuff, and using it to kill other evil. A couple other players like seeing more esoteric rewards such as a plot of land, a pet or ward to look after, hell ive given one of these guys a key and didnt tell him what it was for and it drove his character mad trying to find out what. The others like being along for the story and just enjoy participating in it. All of these players are able to get what they want out of this game because im aware of what makes it fun for each person. Its not a badly designed game because it rewards the player that wants "things", because doing so doesnt take away from the rewards the others are getting. In a tentpole game like this that is trying to cast a large net i would say you need to reward multiple player types...and thats ok. and being in a mindset where you enjoy one kind of reward over another doesnt make you "wrong" | |} ---- Hm? Not sure you got my point. I'm not saying playing the game should be its only reward, but it should be one reward. | |} ---- Fair enough edit: your idea for the EG that doesnt count towards the weekly cap would make a good daily dungeon quest reward imo. | |} ---- ---- As the JPG goes: 'Why not both?' I should have fun all the while aiming to achieve some goal. The tricky part is that there's a fine line where fun turns to tedious. I see all these posts on Reddit from players finishing their first dungeon and saying how great it was. That's the thrill of achievement. But then you have to do again and again and again for negligible rewards, the feeling of achievement wears off, and its easy to see where all that stress and challenge starts to become less fun. I can faceroll dungeons all day long in GW2, yet I'll still feel rewarded as long as I get a decent amount of coin and the armor/weapon skin tokens. And that's what makes the dungeon still fun even if we're stacking our way through it. At the end, I'm working towards my speedrunning efficiency while adding to my wardrobe. From where I sit, Wildstar needs a bit more of that. | |} ---- Try an actual craft (cooking is a 'hobby' in W*). The actual crafts aren't too bad; but there are differences between some craft mechanics (item/armour making 'circuit board' crafting and technologist / architect dart board crafting). I absolutely hate cooking mechanics atm; but I <3 my technologist and architect crafting | |} ---- Really? I took up technologist but haven't tried it yet, as I wanted to get my cook on (bad decision! >.<; ) - it's different & more fun than cooking? | |} ---- Yeah I'm thinking just run them on a separate cap maybe to prevent EG overkill. It would be similar to a token system (like Skoryy mentioned about GW2), just using the unified endgame currency instead. Yeah that's exactly what I meant. :D Guess I didn't phrase it too well. I firmly believe the foundation of a game should be "this is fun to do". And after that, you come up with cool rewards. That's where true magic happens: You get rewarded for having fun. It's the holy grail of game development for me. It's... exactly like cooking, except not as difficult. Same system though. And additives cost a lot. Like... several gold per craft at expert level. If you hated cooking, I don't really see you liking Technologist or Architect... | |} ---- Pewww... darnit :( | |} ---- I'm going to have to disagree here. The system is similar to cooking (with the discovery and crafting based on the additives + dart board); but it's much more straightforward and IMO much more rewarding than cooking. Same with Architect. Yea the additives can get pricey at the highest tiers; but by that point you can make more than enough to cover those costs, especially if you collect some of your materials yourself. | |} ---- Yeah im sitting on all the food my character has ever collected for this reason in hopes that the cooking system will be revamped soon. Maybe add fishing at the same time? might be hoping for too much too quick. | |} ---- Not so much money, at least not for myself, but more as a resource... like those saying that go, "well, that's two hours of my life I'll never be getting back"... :D | |} ---- I can only speak about the pve game up to level 30.. Here is what is wrong with this game.. It is a giant time sink. Period.. Everything in this game is a time/money sink and we learned a long time ago that that type of game model only worked for eq1 when there was zero mmo competition.. It cannot work in 2014 with a vastly watered down market and too many casual and free to play/buy games out there. Sorry carbine and fans of this game, but that is the main reason why this game is failing to retain any semblance of a player base. First of all, they already tarnished their image as 90% of whoever tried this game and didn't like, most likely will never come back to play unless it has a similar pay model as gw2.. basically buy to play and cash shop that is not pay to win. If gw2 can sustain that game with a very honest and not game breaking cash shop, so can other companies. Ncsoft has the best pay model and should be matched very closely.. Totally get rid of any subscription model because honestly, the mmo genre is already too watered down to sustain a decent playerbase in any pay to play sub based mmo. Do not do the bioware model.. Gating content by paying for it will drive even more people away so dont get any strange ideas. It has to be the gw2 model. Absolutely nothing they do to this game will bring back players other than the gw2 pay model. Other things that really killed this game was the cost of crafting mats.. Just when you think you are getting ahead with gold in this game, you end up dropping 30 gold in mats to catch up your crafting level.. Its ridiculous in my opinion. Low populated servers is going to push the remaining players away from this game because no one wants to play a mmo by themselves when there is such great group content to do.. Other than that, I can't speak about end game content or pvp because I have no desire to pvp and I haven't reached end game yet.. But I get the feeling when I do hit max level, I may not even find a guild to raid with.. As the server pop seems to be dying rather quickly. | |} ---- So MMOs have to be all the same and cater to that casual market or die? This is probably why my friends and I typically stay out of the genre. | |} ---- ---- ---- Must not be MOBA or PvP players. | |} ---- ---- The market is way too saturated for a niche hardcore mmorpg (with a subscription model) to be really successful is all I am saying. If they want to end up with enough players to fill 3 or 4 servers in 6 months because their pride and arrogance is more important to them than to make the changes needed, that is what will happen.. Whether or not anything is a success is all subjective and moot. I'd rather see a game like this make the changes to be more successful because we typically don't get very many sci-fi mmo's made with a high budget.. And frankly, I am sick of dwarves and elves in medieval fantasy settings. If this game launched in 1999, it would have been a huge hit because there wasn't any mmo out at the time. Eq 1 got away with making their game a huge grindfest because it was the first or 2nd mmorpg.. 15 years later, in a society of instant gratification-post wow, it is quite a bit harder to please the typical mmo gamer because it is the casuals who populate 80% of these games, and the 20% hardcores are the most vocal about how to make the game fun and appealing for them. Given the talent behind this game, I am surprised they couldn't strike a nice balance and make the game challenging and less grindy.. Gw2 for example struck a good balance by making the game easy to and fun to level, but made end game gear a bit hard/grindy... This game everything is a grind, and that is the biggest problem next to the monthly sub. Like it or not, that is the truth and the sad state of affairs for this game.. | |} ---- ---- I loved EQ, but it was NOT the first, second, third, fourth, or even tenth MMO.... I'm calling BS on everyone pretending EQ had 'no competition'. There was a robust MMO market when EQ1 came out: Asheron's Call, Ultima, Terra, TRO, Meridian, Lineage 1.... Right around the time EQ1 came out FFXI hit the market in Japan, DAoC came out, PSO came out... EQ had plenty of competition.... | |} ---- the vast majority of pre-raid BiS gear is from adventures, dungeons, and world bosses; not crafted. There is only 1 piece of crafted gear that qualifies as BiS for my heal spec medic out of 12 slots; rest is all adv/dung/boss gear. 0 /12 slots Pre-raid BiS are crafted for my DPS medic. Where is all this awesome crafted BiS gear? The highest I've seen is for DPS engi's which have maybe 3 or 4 / 12 slots that can have crafted items as BiS for now.. | |} ---- I didn't say BiS, I said good enough for entry raiding. My point is the level of return from grinding dungeons/adv for that .2% drop chance item that may or may not have usable runes isn't comparable to the time spent/difficulty. | |} ---- ---- Pretty sure it is technically possible to make acceptable progress in a raid with mostly greens as long as the players wearing them are very good. As a matter of fact I know at least a few players who successfully clear content in GA with largely quest gear. Just because it is 'possible' to do something with weaker gear if you have the skill to overcome it; doesn't devalue the stat bonus of actually having the BiS gear.... | |} ---- ---- ---- | |} ---- ---- ----